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Vociferously? Hang on, now. I can count on one hand, maybe two, the number of times I've been like, "Um, how's it going over there?" or paged another active player in the scene to be like, "You know what's up with this?" I don't take it to public channels and I certainly don't go around bitching about it for minutes or hours on end. I really am trying to be sensitive about this. But yes. It IS prevalent and whether all the cool kids are doing it or not, I can't help but notice it.


But it's NOT just the game in question (which, come on, let's call it what it is, which is NorCon). It was the game before that, and the game before that. The trend is definitely more noticeable on NorCon, no doubt, but I wouldn't say every player plays that way, so it's not like it's some universal unspoken contract we all signed.

Plus, you know. I didn't start this line of discussion; obviously it's prevalent enough that other people are taking notice of the trend. No, it's not a secret that it bugs me, and that's kind of why I was trying not to say anything. But-- you know me.

I do know I jump pose order. I'm not trying to be a dick. But in group scenes where three out of five people are within 5-10 minutes of posing, and you know that they'll keep carrying the scene if they can just get a chance, it just-- it doesn't seem right to make people wait for you. AND, I mean, I've seen it done that way for a really, really long time. Maybe I just developed some bad habits. If it's pissing people off that much -- I guess I'm doing it wrong.

Plus, I feel like, if you're WITH the scene, even just a little bit, you can write your pose, and then start thinking about the next one even while other people are still writing. "My character just did this, and if character X responds in this way, that will probably make her feel like this; and if character Y responds another way, maybe I'll do this other thing instead."

I also don't feel like everyone needs to respond to everyone else's pose, and that every single pose needs to be 30 lines long. I know that's how we all did it in 1999. But if you want to fire off a one-liner because that's what makes sense in the scene, dude, just DO it.

It doesn't bug me if people have to go AFK or even take off altogether and either draw the scene to an abrupt close or pick it up later. Life > Game. If my mom calls or my boyfriend's doing a naked dance in the TV room or I'm about to piss myself because I can't hold it in any longer, guess what? You get to wait on me. Or don't! If I'm gone for 10 minutes, please, carry on without me.

But I try to say so. And-- I don't think it's that unreasonable to ask other people to do the same. Unless it is. Is it?

By and large, they absolutely do. I really don't want to give the impression I'm pissed off at all the inconsiderate Slowy McSlowertons running around on the game. I really don't feel that way. But if it never happened ever, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Like I said: I don't give a shit what people do at their jobs. I know people in IT or whatever are on Pern or WoW or wherever from work. Okay. Have fun with that. But there HAVE been times where, unprompted, I'll get a page from another player going, "Sorry I'm slow, the boss is really riding me today." Okay, well... if that's the case, maybe making money should be your priority? It won't hurt my feelings. Really. The game will still be here later! We can pick it up then. But in the meantime, you're stressing yourself out for a scene neither of us is really finding that satisfying.


Agreed on all counts. Maybe I could save myself a lot of heartache by starting off a scene by saying, "Hey guys, I was thinking maybe we could have this wrapped up in an hour," but, I don't know. It seems like it's extra-dickish to expect people to DROP their RL shit on my behalf when it is more common to take a slower speed on NorCon. It's easier for me to wait than for other people to hurry.

Maybe you're not trying to be a dick? But you are a dick. The most recent scene I had with you, at one point you started complaining after a seven-minute lapse between poses--my client timestamps, I checked. Sure, maybe you only said so a couple times. The scene then devolved into me-you-other person-you-me-you-etc, which became totally unworkable, and every time you posed instead of the person who really should have come next, that was basically another gripe that we were too slow. And, uh, on top of that? Maybe you didn't think it'd get back to me that you were complaining to other people about how slow we were being, but yeah. It did.

Not that I have such an ego to think you were waiting with bated breath after that to play with me again, but there would be a reason I don't seek out RP with you anymore.

If you weren't pissed off by it, then why exactly were you complaining both to the participants of the scene *and* third parties? Why start skipping pose order even though it was totally disruptive to the scene?

Yeah, no. We play the way we play because it's sane and it makes sense. It gives people time to have a bit of a life, to think about how their characters are going to respond to things. If you pose faster, great. Good for you. If you want to request that people who pose slower don't RP with you, you're welcome to try that. I, for one, am not in a hurry to actually RP with you ever again at this point, because you were a total obnoxious twit about 7-10 minute wait times, which literally the entire established player base considers a reasonable scene pace. So, congratulations, you've narrowed the field of slow RPers who want to play with you by at least one.

Yes, there are a few people around who are considerably slower. But you're not just jumping pose order for people who're taking half an hour to respond. You're the one breaking the social conventions, here. Not any of us. That makes you the one who's being a twit, Cavatica. Sorry.

I don't keep a time stamp, and I don't literally watch the clock when I'm RPing, so I don't generally know how long it's been between poses. When it feels like it's been about 10 minutes, I start getting a bit shifty. If it was only 7 minutes, I guess I could see why you'd think that was a dick move. It felt a lot longer than that, and enough conversation was happening peripherally, between poses, that I was feeling, like, "Wow. I've read blogs and checked Twitter about 30 times now. I guess it's been a while. What do you think, Susan's Player?" You agreed with me and kept on our pose order, so I guess I thought we were on the same page there. Turns out I couldn't be more wrong. My bad.


Your prerogative, I guess.


Because the other party in the scene responded to my poses almost immediately, so I thought we were in agreement that the third person was AFK and were gonna keep on a'goin'?

For the record, the slow party contacted me afterwards to express some discomfiture about the scene. I acknowledged I was fast and explained I thought the player was AFK, but not to feel like it was super-important to keep up with pose order if I was ahead. (I'm not sure, based on your description, if you were that player or the other one, but either way, both players were making me feel like it wasn't that big of an issue, so... I didn't think it was that big of an issue.)

Like, I guess I just didn't realize pose order was that important to people. Yes: in Hatchings, big group scenes, things where it would just be total anarchy if everyone posed as many times as they wanted: Pose Order or Die. But in three, four person scenes, I always just thought of it as more of a guideline.

Obviously, I'm way the fuck off base about that. I'm sorry I pissed you off. But here's an idea: instead of smiling and nodding at me while it's happening, maybe just say, "Hey dude, simmer down, it hasn't been that long," and I'll say, "Seriously?" and you'll say, "Yeah, I've got a time stamp," and I'll say, "Well, fuck, I'm going to make a sandwich," THE END.

ETA:

Realizing that the scene to which you're referring was one that happened quite a while ago, and that I think I've got my players straight now. So, don't ignore all that other stuff I said, but ignore that other stuff I said. I was confused. But I'm better now. Maybe.

Flip that around. It's in large scenes that you can safely ditch pose order, not small ones, unless it's agreed-upon by the players. In a big scene, the RP tends to break down into little groups, so it's not as important to have pose order outside of a cluster. Otherwise, hell, most party scenes would take a week to finish.

At any rate, the general convention on NorCon that has developed between players is the exact opposite of what you just said. Observe pose order in small scenes of 5-6 or less. Ditch it when it gets bigger.

I guess that makes sense. Maybe I just focus on order more in large scenes because of my own tendency to jump around without guidance. It seems easier to stay in line when more is riding on it. But obviously YMMV, and it's better to conform to the general convention. Which has now been quite thoroughly established for me, tyvm.


10-4.

But, trying to take it back to what people were talking about earlier-- say you've got 6 people in a scene, and 5 of them are maybe 5-15 minutes between poses while the sixth is 20-30. I mean, at that point, you're talking about 30-45 minutes just to get out a full cycle of poses. For a klah-sipping scene, that can be torture. IS there some point where it's okay to mention it, either to the group or individually to the slow person?

Conversely, what if it's the opposite? The situation Susan was talking about before-- she and I were scening with a girl I've known for a bunch of years, to whom I recommended the game. We'd been talking constantly and actively via page throughout the course of the scene, just catching up and all. Suddenly, she disappeared, and yes, after a few minutes (7, apparently), I used the OOC command to kind of go, "Hello? Bueller?" As I saw it, it was like being on a dropped cell phone call. If you're talking to your mom and she suddenly drops out, you don't wait 10 minutes to go, "Hello? Hello? Can you hear me now?"

So in the game, under those circumstances, is that really an inappropriate response?

After 7 minutes? Yeah, man. It kind of is. They could have just gone to the bathroom in that amount of time. I'm a 10-15 minute poser on a good day and it's not because I'm at work or because I'm, what, grouting the tiles in my kitchen. I just like to think about my response and pose something that will actually add more dimension to a scene beyond "answering the last person's pose in as few words as possible". I don't know the norms of the game where you write but I always get kind of annoyed when a person poses too fast because, generally (and I have seen a few exceptions and when I do they genuinely impress me, but they're rare) the poses are flat and shallow and offer little character-exploration and development.

Klah-sipping can turn into a lot more than just klah-sipping if you can get a really interesting conversation going between characters, and in a situation where a really good question is asked, it can sometimes take a person longer than five minutes RL to think of an answer, much less write it. I haven't seen your writing to know if you're one of the rare and few (you might well be) but if you are in a whole group of people that can write fast and insightful then... Dude. I'm going to come join your game, because that sounds like paradise .

We all have things we look for but I guess speed is at the bottom of my priority list. I'd rather wait that extra 5-10 minutes if it means I'll get something more meaty from a person's pose.

But yeah, as said before, communication is the key. If a person tells me they only have an hour before they leave, I do actually tend to tell them I'd catch them at another time because slower does mean you'll only get four or five good poses out in that time (though I have done a number of short "passing by in a hallway" scenes with 3-4 poses per person that were better than a lot of the quickie writers I've seen that had thrice that many.)

I realize we're getting dangerously close to a constructive discussion here, and maybe we should start one where relevant. ;> But: it tends to be a scene-by-scene thing for me. I play to hone my writing skill and explore character/plot development, yes. But sometimes I play it just for fun, or to kill a little time -- depending on my mood, on what's going on online, etc. I mean, at the end of the day, it is a game. So there's that -- that I don't treat every single scene with equal seriousness.

I also realize my own style has changed enough over the years that I find myself less interested in a lot of purple prose and extended descriptions. Yeah, I remember back in the day how I used to need 10 minutes minimum per pose for daily scenes, and maybe 10-15 for flights and Hatchings and whatever, because I wanted to show everyone my big SAT vocabulary. These days, not so much. In the name of clarity, I try to keep it simple. Three lines to describe the exact sound, color, and smell of my character as she pulls out a chair? How about, "Jane pulls out a chair and sits" or, even better, "Jane sits"?

(I tend to envision my dad, who's been writing for 40+ years, standing over my shoulder and hacking out adverbs with a red pen. He always said don't say in 20 words what you can say in 10; don't say in 10 words what you can say in 5. I can't shake it!)

Emotionally charged scenes, scenes directly related to plot development, etc. -- totally, bring on the thoughtful, genius prose. That takes a little more time? Cool, do it up. But I just don't feel the same pressure for most daily RP.

So yeah, you probably wouldn't enjoy RP with me much. ;> I'm not trying to write a bestseller every time.

Since no one else seems to have your back here, Cavatica, I'll throw my opinion in and say that I have to agree with you on some of your points.

I'm a faster typer, too, and if I'm RPing, I'm right there at the computer. I can knock out a decent pose in 3-5 minutes. If I'm RPing with someone who takes 15+ minutes to type a pose that's just filled with fluff and no meat, and it happens pose after pose after pose, I'll pose out. Because really, with 15 minute intervals between poses, I lose interest in the scene and have a very hard time staying involved and "in character". I get bored. But, of course, if they do give some warning that they'll be slow, that's another story entirely.

Now, I'll clarify. There are those very special people who I'll wait 30+ minutes for their pose, even without any sort of a warning about them being busy or distracted, but I can count on one hand the number of people I'll do that for.

On the flip side, I know people who will pose something in under a minute after me, but it'll only consist of: Billy tilts his head to the side. "Why do you think that?" That's almost as frustrating. Especially if you get those pose after pose after pose. While I hate fluff, a liiiittle fluff is necessary, I think. Reading scenes where people go back and forth posing 2 sentences each gets really annoying.

This probably all sounds so contradictory, but oh well.

I think you're confusing someone saying they want to write thoughtful poses with someone saying they want to write purple poses, Cavatica. Taking longer to think about and construct poses doesn't mean needing to fill them with overblown description so much as wanting to really make sure you have a handle on how that char would be thinking/reacting.

It's not even a case of always trying to write a bestseller (though it is rather nicer to get well-crafted prose than haphazard prose), but -- I don't know. I have noticed that some people's characters tend to blend together; there's not always that much distinction between the way they speak/act/react to things, and for me it takes a little bit of thinking before I write in order to keep my characters from running together in my head and turning out poses that would fit any of them equally.

So, yeah, I do not mind people taking a long time to pose; I rather welcome it if it means I am getting poses that really capture the feel of the character they are playing.

I'm going to chime in here firstly with the note that I would only be religious about pose order with 3-4 players in a scene or less. I'd call 5-6 players a large scene (plus, seriously, if everybody's taking 10-15 minutes to pose, that means you're all posing once per hour, if you wait everybody out!). Obviously, present day NorCon is certainly permitted to have different conventions from where and when I played, but I don't think it's unreasonable for some players to find that hard going.

My other comment is are you 10-15 minute posers really taking all that time just to think about and write your carefully crafted pose?? Seriously? I touch-type, but I'm not hugely fast at it, and I could churn out a five line pose in five minutes, back in the day. That included thinking my character's actions out, making sure the other character(s) had a hook to respond to and making the effort to have good spelling and grammar. Because, really, all those things do become a habit. In my experience, people who taking 15 minutes to pose are spending a good chunk of that time chatting to somebody else, checking the web, writing an email or what-have-you, not creating fine literature.

And while I'd pass seven minutes as an acceptable time to wait for a pose, I agree with Cavatica that having such a long downtime between poses makes scenes drag in more ways than time. If I'm twiddling my thumbs waiting for your pose, I'm going to start doing something else while I wait, and that takes me out of the scene, meaning my own response will be slower when I do get back into it, but also that I'm having less fun. I prefer to be immersed in a scene, and not doing anything else when I RP. It's possible that the overall quality of the scene might suffer slightly, that we might meander a little before getting where we want to go, but I'm writing to enjoy the moment, not so that I can admire the log later.

Just clarifying. Cavatica was the one that didn't want to wait pose order for 3-4 players, but thought you had to adhere to it for larger scenes.

NorCon, from what I know, tends to follow the convention that you listed above, but obviously this can differ based on any different array of players.

So Cavatica finding that hard going for that reason isn't what the point is.

That said. I think a lot has to be said with conveying your impatience. From what I know of Cavatica, she doesn't really have the most diplomatic way of conveying such frustrations and impatience and, occasionally, has a tendency to come off a little pushy and arrogant on channels in a very breezy 'my way or no way' style; which, as an observer, seems less to do with the fact that Cavatica is actually as intentionally brash as she comes off as much as she can't fathom a world where people don't know what WTB and OOT or whatever might mean, and where people don't 'get' her sense of humor or are put off by her brand of pushiness.

So rather than this particular instance just being a problem in terms of how long someone takes to pose or what the general posing convention is on a game, it may just be that this is an inherent personality conflict between one player and many.

That said, I think it's perfectly reasonable to take between 5-15 minutes to pose. And to answer Pyrene's question, yes, when I took 15 minutes to pose at least 5 minutes of that was rereading the following poses (in scenes of more than two people). I'd write out a basic pose of how my character might react based on what I know of how the other character(s) might react and then rearrange and tailor or sometimes scrap and rewrite. This process took me anywhere from 5-15 minutes depending on how involved the scene was. The more involved a scene is the more time it would take me because sometimes those details (that aren't purple prose) do matter.

I know, but Nutmeg defined 5-6 players as a small scene, so that comment was directed at her. Nothing to do with Cavatica's stuff. If NorCon isn't being anal about pose order for that many players, I'm relieved to hear it.



This is certainly the impression I've garnered. But that doesn't mean that Cavatica isn't making some valid points on here that I can't agree with. I think I've ranted at length about not just agreeing with the mob before.



OK, this boggles my mind. For an involved scene, particularly if it's one on one, I don't think it's OTT, but for casual RP? For just hanging around the living caverns to see what comes up? You'd still choose painstaking effort over spontaneity? Because that's what it is for me. It's the joy of spontaneity, improvisation and bouncing off other players, and that means it has to be done fairly quickly. Speed actually is an important factor in my RP or otherwise I lose my rhythm. I'd rather have my partner hit a couple of bum notes than keep me waiting around for perfection.

I love writing, but RP is a totally different exercise for me than writing a story or an essay. If I'm writing an actual passage of pose, sure I'll plan (usually exhaustively) and rewrite and tweak, but even then, I find the best way to figure out what I'm doing is to actually write and let the ideas flow. RP, for me, is that sort of practice in letting go and just running with it. It's the live experience, rather than PBEm. Doing things your way... well, I'd probably find it more satisfying to write Pern fanfic.

Now, plainly, you get a different sort of joy out of RPing, so... I learn something new everyday, I suppose. I'm just always going to be in the group that prefer fast-paced RP, and I don't believe we're compromising the quality of our experience by doing so.

Honestly, we've all grown into our own styles. Sometimes these styles clash and sometimes they work beautifully together. The more flexible a person is, obviously the more people you'll get to Rp with. If you start putting 'Time Limits' on poses or 'Restrictions' on how someone else should pose with you, of course you're not going to enjoy it. You have to find the people you can connect with, in all ways that count. Whether this means hanging out with the fast posers who limit their detail or substance, or finding people who do use 30min to splatter your screen with spammage - that's up to you, as the player.

No amount of griping on here will change how everyone else plays. They're already set in their ways, you in yours. Know your tolerance and your limits.

For example, when I approached a scene on Pernworld not too long ago, the group was made out of crafters - healers to be specific. While their Rp was some of the best I've come across in a group scene as large as their own (characters well rounded and coming off the page at you) it was impossible for me to squeeze in my character. Why? Because at that moment, they were posing in a capacity I couldn't handle. I bowed out before I even started in. Sometimes you just have to know when to bow out. Sometimes you just have to consider what you're bringing to the scene and admit when you're likely going to crash the scene.

PS., Thank people for RP no matter the reason for your departure!! ^_^

To clarify: 5-6 people is the /max/ where there's an expectation of maintaining some kind of pose order. Personally, I can't keep up with scenes that are more than about 3-4 people with pose order and tend to say no when people ask to join scene if we're already up to 4, exactly because of what you mentioned, namely that it'll take an hour per /round/ to just get through everyone.

In scenes at or over the 5-6 mark, then 'party' behavior typically applies - namely, treat the scene like a big party in a big room: you don't talk to every person in the room at the same time, just the ones you're clustered with until you move on to another person/persons or step to the side for a moment.

On a good day, I can knock out a pose in 2-5 minutes and they're reasonably robust. There are players of like style, where we can knock out a meaningful scene in 45 minutes to an hour or just over. There are players who are a little slower and average in that 5-15 minute range and are still a joy to play with, but 1.5 to 3 hours might be needed to finish a scene, especially if it involves a deep conversation. Even slower than that, as long as, again, it's communicated that that's the expectation, that's cool too. Even folks who randomly idle for a half hour or fall asleep at the keyboard without warning don't bother me that much as long as that's more of an exception than a rule.

What does bug me, is players who consistently and constantly take 30-45 minutes for a single pose, without warning, without an agreement reached, especially if the subject of the scene is one that's important to both characters, plot-oriented, what have you. In my opinion, "I'm going to be slowish" doesn't really cover a 45 minute pose rate and definitely warrants clearer communication and expectation-setting.

Basically, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with any particular pose rate, be it fast or slow, as long as everyone's on the same page about what to generally expect as much as both players are able to predict.